Comments on: J.I. Packer on Creation: God is the Creator http://deepgreenconversation.org/ji-packer-on-creation-god-is-the-creator/ Sun, 16 May 2010 05:35:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: John Mustol http://deepgreenconversation.org/ji-packer-on-creation-god-is-the-creator/comment-page-1/#comment-682 John Mustol Tue, 19 May 2009 14:02:33 +0000 http://deepgreenconversation.org/?p=321#comment-682 Two books you may want to look at that address this question are: Murphy and Ellis, On the Moral Nature of the Universe, in which they claim that the fundamental moral principle of the universe is kenotic; and Stassen and Gushee, Kingdom Ethics, in which they divide moral deliberation/action into 4 dimensions: (1) way of seeing; (2) way of reasoning; (3) loyalties, trusts, interests, passions; and (4) basic convictions. Although I am unsure how well these ideas align with empirical reality, I think they are informative and helpful. If you haven't read them, I recommend them. Two books you may want to look at that address this question are: Murphy and Ellis, On the Moral Nature of the Universe, in which they claim that the fundamental moral principle of the universe is kenotic; and Stassen and Gushee, Kingdom Ethics, in which they divide moral deliberation/action into 4 dimensions: (1) way of seeing; (2) way of reasoning; (3) loyalties, trusts, interests, passions; and (4) basic convictions. Although I am unsure how well these ideas align with empirical reality, I think they are informative and helpful. If you haven’t read them, I recommend them.

]]> By: Alexei Laushkin http://deepgreenconversation.org/ji-packer-on-creation-god-is-the-creator/comment-page-1/#comment-680 Alexei Laushkin Mon, 18 May 2009 03:47:42 +0000 http://deepgreenconversation.org/?p=321#comment-680 There is some agreement. I do believe that the scriptures have a direct impact on self-interest, meaning that in so far as the Lord works on the hearts of people than something transformative occurs. In so far as theology is based on a strong connection to the scripture, I put the quality of Packer's work in that category, than we would expect that with time and preaching a heart change to occur. For Christians a strong vision and sense of the theology of creation is essential. There is some agreement. I do believe that the scriptures have a direct impact on self-interest, meaning that in so far as the Lord works on the hearts of people than something transformative occurs. In so far as theology is based on a strong connection to the scripture, I put the quality of Packer’s work in that category, than we would expect that with time and preaching a heart change to occur. For Christians a strong vision and sense of the theology of creation is essential.

]]> By: John Mustol http://deepgreenconversation.org/ji-packer-on-creation-god-is-the-creator/comment-page-1/#comment-679 John Mustol Sun, 17 May 2009 14:18:16 +0000 http://deepgreenconversation.org/?p=321#comment-679 If I understand you, I believe we agree. Theological (and biblical) ignorance among Christians is pervasive, but, even if Christians did know their theology, would that make any difference? When the rubber hits the road, as it were, what do people actually do? Do they think of the doctrine of creation or do they think about how to take care of themselves and their families? Trying not to be cynical but honest, if we examine the actual behavior of humans (Christian or not), are we not struck by the irrelevance of theological ideas? Is not actual human behavior (with some notable exceptions such as Jesus himself) much more easily and accurately explained by principles of evolutionary biology, for example, than by the theology of the Bible? Examples of this abound not only in ecological areas but in all areas of life. You seem to argue that if people could be shown that their self-interest is aligned with care of nature (creation care), then people might be more inclined to behave in ecologically responsible ways. Is this not an affirmation of my claim that human behavior is not governed by high-minded theology, like that of J. I. Packer, but by plain old self-interest? Notwithstanding your assertion that "theology of creation is essential for Christians," are you not agreeing that this will not change actual human behavior but that the influencing of self-interest will? If I understand you, I believe we agree. Theological (and biblical) ignorance among Christians is pervasive, but, even if Christians did know their theology, would that make any difference? When the rubber hits the road, as it were, what do people actually do? Do they think of the doctrine of creation or do they think about how to take care of themselves and their families? Trying not to be cynical but honest, if we examine the actual behavior of humans (Christian or not), are we not struck by the irrelevance of theological ideas? Is not actual human behavior (with some notable exceptions such as Jesus himself) much more easily and accurately explained by principles of evolutionary biology, for example, than by the theology of the Bible? Examples of this abound not only in ecological areas but in all areas of life.

You seem to argue that if people could be shown that their self-interest is aligned with care of nature (creation care), then people might be more inclined to behave in ecologically responsible ways. Is this not an affirmation of my claim that human behavior is not governed by high-minded theology, like that of J. I. Packer, but by plain old self-interest? Notwithstanding your assertion that “theology of creation is essential for Christians,” are you not agreeing that this will not change actual human behavior but that the influencing of self-interest will?

]]> By: Alexei Laushkin http://deepgreenconversation.org/ji-packer-on-creation-god-is-the-creator/comment-page-1/#comment-675 Alexei Laushkin Fri, 15 May 2009 23:05:21 +0000 http://deepgreenconversation.org/?p=321#comment-675 I think theology of creation is essential for Christians. I think that most folks don't know their theology of creation much less have a general sense of the scriptural vision. Your point on self-interest is key. I think that is the primary mode for people. From a non biblical prospective self-interest properly understood is an important concept. Meaning that if you view your self-interest as part of the common good (which can include taking care of the material world). If folks believe that it is in their best interest to ensure a common interest than that they can be extremely help. I think for many Christians theological grounding is key. Also there is a lot of other things beyond theology, self-interest, and loyalties that play a big role in whether folks will ultimately steward the natural world well. thoughts? I think theology of creation is essential for Christians. I think that most folks don’t know their theology of creation much less have a general sense of the scriptural vision. Your point on self-interest is key. I think that is the primary mode for people. From a non biblical prospective self-interest properly understood is an important concept. Meaning that if you view your self-interest as part of the common good (which can include taking care of the material world). If folks believe that it is in their best interest to ensure a common interest than that they can be extremely help. I think for many Christians theological grounding is key. Also there is a lot of other things beyond theology, self-interest, and loyalties that play a big role in whether folks will ultimately steward the natural world well. thoughts?

]]> By: John Mustol http://deepgreenconversation.org/ji-packer-on-creation-god-is-the-creator/comment-page-1/#comment-672 John Mustol Wed, 13 May 2009 23:07:10 +0000 http://deepgreenconversation.org/?p=321#comment-672 I think that if we actually, really did believe in the doctrine of creation, we would behave very much differently than we do toward the natural world. It remains an open question whether or not, for the vast majority of us, our material behavior within the material world (creation) is determined by high-minded theological ideas such as creation, theocentrism, intrinsic value, and the like. On the whole, do you not think that the behavior of most people (Christian or not) is driven by self-interest, kinship loyalties, and chance? Religious ideas play a secondary role at best? I think that if we actually, really did believe in the doctrine of creation, we would behave very much differently than we do toward the natural world. It remains an open question whether or not, for the vast majority of us, our material behavior within the material world (creation) is determined by high-minded theological ideas such as creation, theocentrism, intrinsic value, and the like. On the whole, do you not think that the behavior of most people (Christian or not) is driven by self-interest, kinship loyalties, and chance? Religious ideas play a secondary role at best?

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